Post by Paragon on Apr 14, 2007 22:44:20 GMT -5
This is one of bbq's posts from the "Under God" debate. Because answering it in that thread would have really derailed it here, I decided to try creating a new thread for it.
Ignoring your other points for the moment, yes that's exactly what I said. Attempts at implementing Marxist ideology have led to the deaths of over 100,000,000 people.
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Ukraine's famine, 1932 to 1933: 7 million dead. United Nations Human Rights Council estimate; I've read higher numbers elsewhere.
Great Leap Forward, 1958 to 1961: 20 to 43 million dead. That's from wikipedia; if I get the time, I'll look up the numbers from my books...they were in the same ballpark, if I remember correctly.
North Korean famine, which peaked from 1995 to 1998: anywhere from 500,000 to 3 million (most sources I researched seemed to dwell in the 1.5 to 2.5 million range, but the North Korean government's own census count [which may or may not have been accurate any given year], according to Jasper Becker, was 2 million lower after the worst of the famine years than the it had been prior to the famine.
--
Note that each of these three incidents were the results of implementations of the Marxist vision, including forced collectivization of agriculture. If you chose to dispute the causal factors, give me a while and I will elaborate with excerpts from scholarly texts.
That's just three incidents, and we're already up to the 28 to 50 million range.
There are two problems with this argument to me. First, I would not call these directly caused by Marxist Communism, and second, the reason for the first, is because these instances were not Marxist Communism.
Marxist Communism has yet to be successfully implemented because people have gone about it the wrong way. While I agree with nearly all that Marx wrote, I disagree on one small area. Marx claimed the advent of communism would be on the heels of a revolution, while I believe instead that true communism (Marxist, in all but the revolution area), will be implemented slowly over time, due to the large changes in attitudes of the general populace before it is realized, that will take generations.
Meanwhile, the implementation of a form of government erroniously called communism in other countries was the cause of the deaths. They may have been trying to create "Marxist Communisms", but they did not, and were not taking the right steps, thus making Marxist Communism only indirectly responsible. If it had been properly implemented, and still resulted in those deaths, then it would be directly responsible (though in many ways causing those deaths would be the cessation of proper implementation, as Marxist Communism does not involve it).
The real cause of those deaths was opportunists jumping on the circumstances, and using them to rise to power for their own good, not that of the people, as well as an attempt to switch in places that were simply ill-prepared for it.
A necessary step for communsim is Democracy, because Democracy lead to expansion of rights, and more distribution of property, both very necessary in communism.
This brings up another important point: freedom is very important in communism. A common misconception is that in communist societies, people have less and less rights, and are forced to do more and more against their wills. This is not the case. Communism is designed to allow everyone ownership of everything, as well as support self-actualization, meaning letting people find their perfect jobs, what they really want to do, instead of what makes them money.
Another common argument against communism is that lazy people will take advantage of the system. This would be true if lazy people existed in a communism. As it is, communism would not work if implemented today in America. People are lazy here, because we have been raised to be. Many of us (myself included) have been raised to take advantage of people. Obviously for communism to work, people must be weaned of these beliefs. This is one of the reasons I believe it is so important for the onset of communism to be gradual, because the necessary opinions must be spread, and taught. When enough people are concerned with the well being of the whole, instead of themselves, communism will rise. People will want to work for each other, and for themselves, not for money, not for posessions, but to realize their full potential (and here I have support from some important psychologists).
For example, Maslow stated that people have a hierarchy of needs, that can be arranged as a pyramid. The first level is the common needs, food, water, shelter. The next is security. Then comes acceptance with other people. After that is self-esteem. And finally is self-actualization. Without each level, one cannot move to the next. If you cannot eat, you are not concerned with being safe. If you are not safe, you are not concerned with finding love and acceptance. If you are not loved or accepted, you cannot have high self-esteem. And if you do not have high self-esteem, you cannot strive to realize your full potential as a person.
Money falls under the first and second levels of this. In a populace that shares, the first two levels are garuanteed, hopefully allowing people to move to the next levels more easily.
Of course, I have not covered everything, but I can't type any more for now.
bbqsandwich said:
paragon said:
I hope you don't mean to suggest Marxist Communism is an outdated ideology directly responsible for the deaths of over one hundred million people, because if you were suggesting this, you would be wrong.Ignoring your other points for the moment, yes that's exactly what I said. Attempts at implementing Marxist ideology have led to the deaths of over 100,000,000 people.
--
Ukraine's famine, 1932 to 1933: 7 million dead. United Nations Human Rights Council estimate; I've read higher numbers elsewhere.
Great Leap Forward, 1958 to 1961: 20 to 43 million dead. That's from wikipedia; if I get the time, I'll look up the numbers from my books...they were in the same ballpark, if I remember correctly.
North Korean famine, which peaked from 1995 to 1998: anywhere from 500,000 to 3 million (most sources I researched seemed to dwell in the 1.5 to 2.5 million range, but the North Korean government's own census count [which may or may not have been accurate any given year], according to Jasper Becker, was 2 million lower after the worst of the famine years than the it had been prior to the famine.
--
Note that each of these three incidents were the results of implementations of the Marxist vision, including forced collectivization of agriculture. If you chose to dispute the causal factors, give me a while and I will elaborate with excerpts from scholarly texts.
That's just three incidents, and we're already up to the 28 to 50 million range.
There are two problems with this argument to me. First, I would not call these directly caused by Marxist Communism, and second, the reason for the first, is because these instances were not Marxist Communism.
Marxist Communism has yet to be successfully implemented because people have gone about it the wrong way. While I agree with nearly all that Marx wrote, I disagree on one small area. Marx claimed the advent of communism would be on the heels of a revolution, while I believe instead that true communism (Marxist, in all but the revolution area), will be implemented slowly over time, due to the large changes in attitudes of the general populace before it is realized, that will take generations.
Meanwhile, the implementation of a form of government erroniously called communism in other countries was the cause of the deaths. They may have been trying to create "Marxist Communisms", but they did not, and were not taking the right steps, thus making Marxist Communism only indirectly responsible. If it had been properly implemented, and still resulted in those deaths, then it would be directly responsible (though in many ways causing those deaths would be the cessation of proper implementation, as Marxist Communism does not involve it).
The real cause of those deaths was opportunists jumping on the circumstances, and using them to rise to power for their own good, not that of the people, as well as an attempt to switch in places that were simply ill-prepared for it.
A necessary step for communsim is Democracy, because Democracy lead to expansion of rights, and more distribution of property, both very necessary in communism.
This brings up another important point: freedom is very important in communism. A common misconception is that in communist societies, people have less and less rights, and are forced to do more and more against their wills. This is not the case. Communism is designed to allow everyone ownership of everything, as well as support self-actualization, meaning letting people find their perfect jobs, what they really want to do, instead of what makes them money.
Another common argument against communism is that lazy people will take advantage of the system. This would be true if lazy people existed in a communism. As it is, communism would not work if implemented today in America. People are lazy here, because we have been raised to be. Many of us (myself included) have been raised to take advantage of people. Obviously for communism to work, people must be weaned of these beliefs. This is one of the reasons I believe it is so important for the onset of communism to be gradual, because the necessary opinions must be spread, and taught. When enough people are concerned with the well being of the whole, instead of themselves, communism will rise. People will want to work for each other, and for themselves, not for money, not for posessions, but to realize their full potential (and here I have support from some important psychologists).
For example, Maslow stated that people have a hierarchy of needs, that can be arranged as a pyramid. The first level is the common needs, food, water, shelter. The next is security. Then comes acceptance with other people. After that is self-esteem. And finally is self-actualization. Without each level, one cannot move to the next. If you cannot eat, you are not concerned with being safe. If you are not safe, you are not concerned with finding love and acceptance. If you are not loved or accepted, you cannot have high self-esteem. And if you do not have high self-esteem, you cannot strive to realize your full potential as a person.
Money falls under the first and second levels of this. In a populace that shares, the first two levels are garuanteed, hopefully allowing people to move to the next levels more easily.
Of course, I have not covered everything, but I can't type any more for now.