|
Post by Paragon on May 8, 2007 18:53:38 GMT -5
I'm not talking about existing "socialist societies".
|
|
|
Post by voltage on May 8, 2007 22:03:50 GMT -5
I'm not talking about existing "socialist societies". Then your not talking about Communism. You want to know the truth about this fantasy you have towards communism? You think it would be great, people helping people the world a big community helping itself and providing food and work and happiness for whoever needs it. The problem is people aren't naturally that way. The real christians are the ones who work their tail off to fight against there nature, which Jesus' help, and help people. You assume that the reason why Communism doesn't work is the people in history who started it. The problem is, Paragon, it's not just those people. It's all people. The ideals of Communism had their shot, but the nature of people turned it into the monster which is known as Communism. If I made a government which would work flawlessly provided all people could fly with personal jetpacks, then my ideals would be worthless. What if I tried it out? Everyone doesn't have a jetpack so of course those who do rise above those who can't. I face an absolute dictator who decides that having no jetpack makes you an underling. After a revolution and everybody gets freed from the "jetpack ruler" there are people walking around saying: But it could still work! It jsut wasn't done correctly! Think of it as an equation, the people are not variables, they are constants!
|
|
|
Post by ixthusdan on May 9, 2007 7:50:46 GMT -5
Paragon, I do not wish to make mockery of your desire to see a society where the best of humanity shines. If you have a better idea of doing this, go for it. But people are people. Socialism does not work. Trying to achieve different results while doing the same old thing is insane. Marxism breaks down when the elite must relinquish their power. They don't. They never have. A government must be designed to keep that power diffused into the masses. The US Constitution did this, all the way until Franklin Roosevelt made the country a socialist state. Since then, we have experienced the same problems as the rest of the socialists. For a time, our media remained free. But today, they are nothing more than a mouth piece for the power elite, the socialists. Marxism does not work because it cannot move through its societal evolution. Look at every communist country. The leaders die in office. Their replacements are part of the elite. IN some places, like Cuba, there is no elite group. When Carstro dies, the military will take over because they have the guns. In fact, Cuba is your ideal Marxist state. It just doesn't work.
|
|
|
Post by Paragon on May 9, 2007 13:25:38 GMT -5
We're not out of this stage yet, too much still needs to happen before humanity can move on. People still try to consolidate power, people still think of themselves as more worthy than others. Eventually, that will change, the people in power will not relinquish it, they will just slowly die off, and no new ones will take their places, instead, their power will be slowly divided among the people. As much as I hate the show "American Idol", it is probably an important step as well, helping demonstrate that it is possible to accumulate the votes of the people and make decisions. In time, I see the implementation of a similar system for important decisions about the nation. Eventually, the presidency, congress, even the supreme court will be dissolved, and all will rest in the hands of the public.
|
|
|
Post by ixthusdan on May 9, 2007 17:28:47 GMT -5
Socialists are never interested in opinion, just compliance. I have already told you that "in this stage" Marx advocates the extermination of much of society. You do not seem to understand this. It is why every communist regime has no problem murdering whole segments of the population. It is the socialist ideal.
|
|
|
Post by Paragon on May 11, 2007 19:57:52 GMT -5
Socialists are never interested in opinion, just compliance. I have already told you that "in this stage" Marx advocates the extermination of much of society. You do not seem to understand this. It is why every communist regime has no problem murdering whole segments of the population. It is the socialist ideal. No, I understood. Thats why I said I'm not a Marxist.
|
|
|
Post by voltage on May 12, 2007 19:17:48 GMT -5
So why back up this form of government when human beings aren't out of "this" stage? Do you think your ahead of the human race? My you would mae a fantastic elitist.
|
|
|
Post by Paragon on May 13, 2007 11:41:34 GMT -5
I don't understand what you mean...
|
|
|
Post by voltage on May 14, 2007 21:34:04 GMT -5
Communism has been forced on soceities because an absolute ruler realized that people won't get along. I call this Elitism, or someone being part of the elite who knows better and is smarter and can make the unelite's problems go away. You look on this as someone from outside the human race, which explains why you have missed the problem of the people constant.
|
|
|
Post by Paragon on May 18, 2007 20:40:52 GMT -5
I'd enjoy hearing justification for that conclusion.
|
|
|
Post by voltage on May 20, 2007 22:25:41 GMT -5
I'd enjoy hearing justification for that conclusion. I'd enjoy hearing a decent contradiction.
|
|
|
Post by Paragon on May 23, 2007 7:38:15 GMT -5
I mean the justification for the claim that I look in from the outside. I certainly don't feel like I do.
|
|
|
Post by voltage on May 23, 2007 9:29:18 GMT -5
Yet in your post you say "We're not out of this stage yet, too much still needs to happen before humanity can move on" and then "Eventually, that will change, the people in power will not relinquish it, they will just slowly die off, and no new ones will take their places, instead, their power will be slowly divided among the people" also: " In time, I see the implementation of a similar system for important decisions about the nation."
All I hear in this statement is confidence that in time this plan will suddenly work. The human race hasn't 'moved' on yet you recognize this. My conclusion is that you feel your one of the enlightened human beings who is waiting for the rest of humanity to catch up so you can have a glorious communist community. I don't believe there is much more that can be said here, the rest is up to you.
|
|
|
Post by Paragon on Jun 10, 2007 10:38:47 GMT -5
That's almost right. I do believe I know something that a lot of others don't. I do not believe that I am ready for communism myself, because I still think about profit and expenditures. I wouldn't really fit in in a communist society.
|
|
|
Post by ixthusdan on Jun 10, 2007 19:18:09 GMT -5
You, my friend, are infected with alienation. Doom for you, so that you do not infect anyone else!
It sounds absurd, doesn't it? Yet it is the heart of the socialist ideal. Marx argued himself into the end of the human race. If it were not so sad that people have attempted to follow the socialist ideal, it would be funny.
|
|