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Post by voltage on Apr 16, 2007 15:05:55 GMT -5
I expect you to use your language appropriately and with clarity. Words of vague interpretation have no place on a forum of mature discussion.
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Post by Paragon on May 7, 2007 14:20:48 GMT -5
Who says mature debate is required here, and that my use of those words is immature?
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Post by ixthusdan on May 7, 2007 16:32:29 GMT -5
*yawn*
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Post by voltage on May 8, 2007 8:47:18 GMT -5
Who says mature debate is required here, and that my use of those words is immature? I expect you to use your language appropriately and with clarity. Words of vague interpretation have no place on a forum of mature discussion.
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Post by Admin on May 8, 2007 18:49:08 GMT -5
Again Voltage, read over Paragon's post (which you just quoted). He just told you he didn't use profanity in an immature way.
And besides, I have yet to see Paragon use profanity in a derogatory way towards anyone on this forum (such as "fuck you"), which makes his use of it totally legal on this forum in my eyes.
Proposed new rule: Profanity is aloud so long as used as a sentance enhancer. [Example can be included]. If used as an ad hominem attack on a member of this forum, then it will not be tollerated and the member who used the profanity will recieve a warning and their post will be edited.
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Post by radioear on May 8, 2007 18:50:31 GMT -5
but what about responsibility? If you have the freedom to throw a waterballoon at a wedding, should you do it for the sake of freedom? Or keep a waterballoon or two under your chair for the sake of freedom? It is my freedom to throw water balloons at you...
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Post by Admin on May 8, 2007 19:10:21 GMT -5
but what about responsibility? If you have the freedom to throw a waterballoon at a wedding, should you do it for the sake of freedom? Or keep a waterballoon or two under your chair for the sake of freedom? It is my freedom to throw water balloons at you... Exactly what I'm getting at. But then it is your choice whether or not you do.
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Post by Paragon on May 8, 2007 20:12:57 GMT -5
Who says mature debate is required here, and that my use of those words is immature? I expect you to use your language appropriately and with clarity. Words of vague interpretation have no place on a forum of mature discussion. Any word can have multiple possible interpretations. Words gain meaning, not only from their strict definitions, but also from the context in which they are used. Therefore, words themselves are not immature, instead, the context in which they are used is or is not immature. The words themselves remain words. Nearly any word can be construed as "vague" under the right circumstances. If your objective is to ban the use of vague words, you should not show preference to some words. The use of the word "good" can be many times more vague than the word "fuck", yet it is perfectly acceptable. When I say "That's bullshit." it is generally understood that I am using the word "bullshit" as a synonym for the word "nonesense". Other applicable words include "poppycock", "balderdash", and "horseshit". Yet, the message is still clearly understood; I believe the statement in question is nonesensical, devoid of meaning, inapplicable, or invalid. The meaning is still quite clear, because the context is understood. Meanwhile, use of the words themselves is not necessarily immature (the definition of immature also seems somewhat vague to me...please follow your own rules). In my opinion, intolerance of language is far more immature than the use of language, as it represents a refusal to deal with the undesirable in a mature manner. I would expect a mature person to ignore the use of profanity and focus on the matter at hand, instead of getting hung up on the use of a "swear word". My point is this; words are tricky bastards, and you can rarely ever tie them down to any one thing. Because the catagorization of words is indefinite, and highly subjective, the use of words should not be restricted in any fashion on a forum where objective moderation is important - which it certainly is in a debate forum.
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Post by voltage on May 8, 2007 21:48:42 GMT -5
Words have meaning. Calling what someone else said bullshit doesn't make me feel that you were behaving maturely. If you called it nonsense, you would still be insulting since you could have delivered any opposing points without making a remark as that. Saying bullshit however is worse. No instead of making a statement such as "your poppycock" and being made out to be an accuser, you decided to say "that's bullshit" which takes on an entirely new juvenile approach. Ixthusdan was trying to communicate and debate in a very proper manner and you turned around and said "that's bullshit." Much the same in another topic where you told me "I think you pulled that right out of your ass." Sure you'll get a giggle reading it, but on this forum it seems a much better approach to be able to put forth our views and discuss each other's views without someone coming around and starting there sentences with "That's bullshit!"
But then again, we still have a strict rule of censoring your language when it has no place. We already know you disagree with Ixthus, so why would you attempt to communicate that?
Now you have been informed that your use of language as a negative effect on other members. If you insist on continuing your actions then you will be warned through the pm system, edited, and eventually deactivated for a short term. If you still after all intervention and patience has run thin, insist on carrying on with actions that you know have an adverse effect on others, then you will be banned. This is not a threat, its a recital of board policy and once more, for the final time, I will not tolerate this behavior.
Proposed new rule: Profanity is aloud so long as used as a sentance enhancer. If it is proven that the use of such has an adverse/negative effect on other members, or if used as an ad hominem attack on a member of this forum, then it will not be tolerated and the member who used the profanity will have their post eidted, will receive a warning thorugh pms and eventually will be deactivated. If the need arises after exhaustive negotiation the member will be decalred as nothing more than one who wishes to disturb the forum. The member will be banned.
Part of this is already in effect since the forum's creation, but a more specific section has been made on the use of profanity.
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Post by Paragon on May 9, 2007 10:08:41 GMT -5
The decision is, obviously yours, but I feel obligated to say here and now that I protest. I feel that your current actions and threats of action are the result of a severe bias, not that of an objective moderator, and are fueled by a dislike of my personal choices in beliefs. If this is how my attempts at open debate are recieved, I will leave this forum of my own free will, and recommend to others that they avoid the forum as well, because some of the administration has a personal vendetta against people who choose to be different than them.
Just because you dislike profanity by no means makes its use wrong. There is no universal moral code that dictates such things.
I do understand, that some people find it morally reprehensible to use "demeaning" language. However, in a forum designed for open discussion and debate of often controversial subjects, where moral value itself is debated, the prevention of use of any language a user wishes oppresses the voices of those who would contribute to meaningful debate, making the forum itself pointless.
Who will you have to debate if you ban everyone who disagrees with you? The nature of debate requires a thick skin, and the ability to absorb the possibly offensive, because for a truley meaningful dialog to open, nothing must be off-limits. On other forums, members are not allowed to debate religion, politics, or sexuality, because of the potential for personal offense. As this forum has demonstrated, these very topics, because of the volatile nature of the discussions that arise around them, are just that debate that needs to be allowed the most. Profanity is not an exception to this list.
Its up to you. Would you rather have a debate forum, or watch this one die because only those who agree are allowed to stay? You can't have very meaningful debate without opposing views.
Did Ixthusdan complain? It looks to me like he continued the debate just fine, just as I did. (Incidentally, if you did, Ix, I wish you would have told me.) No, the only person with a problem with my use of language is you. Why? Because you can do something about it. You're anxious to prove you can beat me at something, after so many failed attempts to get through to me and change my mind. It makes you angry, so now you're going to get revenge. Thats not a proper method of debate in my opinion, and I think you'll agree.
I'm sure Ixthusdan, like myself, knows not to take things too personally, especially on the internet. I'm sure he understands as well that my use of the word "bullshit" was to underline the degree to which I disagreed with him.
I don't use "profanity" for shits and giggles, just so you know. I don't do it because it amuses me. I do it to make absolutely sure that my opinion is clear, almost like the thesis of my posts. That way, instead of wondering what exactly my stance on the issue is, a reader knows how I feel, and can focus on identifying the reason I feel that way more easily.
I'd also like to protest the idea that the forum is responsible for preventing members from being offended, its a ridiculous expectation. Once again, debate has a tendency to move toward more personal feelings, because the subjects being debated can be of rather personal nature to the members (for example, calling you an idiot for believing in religion might be offensive to you, because you are religious). If it were up to me, anyone could say whatever they damn well pleased, and if someone was offended, they'd just have to take it up with the person that offended them. Incidentally, it is up to me on my own forums, and that is the way I run it. See, I pride myself on not getting angry when someone's response to one of my arguments is "FUCK YOU!". It doesn't bother me. A person has the right to believe what they want and behave how they want, as long as they do not interfere with the rights of others. I believe it was Mills who said, "A man's liberty ends where another's begins".
And I won't tolerate what I think is a poor excuse for moderation. Good luck having worthwhile debates without me, because there is no way I'm backing down from this one.
If I were an administrator here, I'd immediately vote against that for being so vague and open to interpretation.
Go ahead and ban me if you want. There are plenty of other places I can be heard, not the least of which is the forum I created. Those interested, just click the green box in my signature.
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Post by voltage on May 9, 2007 10:54:24 GMT -5
The decision is, obviously yours, but I feel obligated to say here and now that I protest. I feel that your current actions and threats of action are the result of a severe bias, not that of an objective moderator, and are fueled by a dislike of my personal choices in beliefs. If this is how my attempts at open debate are recieved, I will leave this forum of my own free will, and recommend to others that they avoid the forum as well, because some of the administration has a personal vendetta against people who choose to be different than them. I have tried to personally clear the air between me and you, and you have accepted. I did not say anyone who is profane will be banned, and you obviously missed the point. Nobody enjoys the comments they received from you, and instead of going back and editing your post, or simply saying that you will adhere to the rules, you insist on making a big deal of this. However if you wish to leave the forum that is your choice. I just hope that you can find people elsewhere who will enjoy the verbal abuse you can offer. We have board guidelines here. It will not kill you to not cuss when you want to. If you want to display a truly mature attitude, then you will follow the rules. This is a balanced forum because we have two admins. As much as you would like to believe that I am not equal to Ho Chi, I am in every right. We both make decisions on issues where the other might be biased or unable to see objectively. On this particular issue I have compromised and let in the rule that you can cuss, but not as a direct attack or if you are insulting other members. I believe it is an immature and adolescent attitude which makes most cuss. I also look out for the well being of all members as a whole. We may lose three members to tolerate your language, or we could lose you and maintain a healthy forum.
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Post by Paragon on May 9, 2007 13:13:19 GMT -5
Yes, the terms of service do state that profanity is not allowed. The problem is that they do not provide a definition of the term. I personally do not believe any of the words I have used are profane, as I have stated before, I think words are words. If ProBoards provided a clear definition (these following words are profanity, these are not), I would be fine with that. But the idea of the profane is not universal. Some people believe the word "vagina" is profane, while others view it as simply a technical term for a part of the female anatomy.
According to my beliefs, I have not violated the TOS.
Meanwhile, how do we determine offense? Are we going to be Millian about it, and argue that only the effect matters, or listen to Kant, and decide that the intent is what is important? Is something offensive if someone finds it offensive, or if it was meant to be offensive?
I feel obligated to point out that none of my posts were specifically intended to be offensive.
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Post by voltage on May 9, 2007 13:38:08 GMT -5
Theres two things I see you doing in the previous post. First off your justifying you violation of not one, but two proboards Terms of Service conditions by saying that it's not clearly defined. Now in the case of profanity, I have had several conversations with the Proboards Support Staff and they have come to the conclusion taht the clause is to make the forums friendly to everyone, not just to those who want to be profane. They stated to me that there is leniency since they understand some people simply cuss when they talk, meaning no harm or hurt to other members. Your other violation is that spam and flaming section.
Now I understand the trick. Definitions are being "undefined" left and right, particularly in the newer topics. Cult doesn't mean cult. Agnostic doesn't mean agnostic. Atheist suddenly means anti-theist, and anti-theist doesnt mean what anti-theist mean. Profanity isn't profanity and guidelines are open to interpretation.
I don't buy this. We did not set up the guidelines to say "Now of course it's all open to interpretation." Your action will not be tolerated. That is not the debate.
The other thing you are doing is stating that you did not wish to offend anyone. I could regard that as simple lack of control, and ask you to kindly edit your post. However for the past 3 posts you have been saying nothing but "ban me! ban me!" because yoiu feel you will become a martyr for the sake of profanity. This is not the point. All this began because you and another member started stating that Ixthus was saying Bullshit. The other member apolgized and moved on with the debate. You however began challenging me, and still are trying to make an even bigger deal out of something that should have been simple and easily solved.
Now you can follow in the footsteps of the other member, and we can return to normal. Or you can keep screaming that I am a terrible administrator, taht you should be allowed to cuss as much as you do on your forum, and that words have no meaning unless Paragon says they do.
What are you going to choose?
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Post by Paragon on May 9, 2007 13:54:15 GMT -5
Why isn't it open to debate? This is a debate forum, shouldn't everything be open to debate? If my opinion is that certain words are not profane, shouldn't I be allowed to debate that? Shouldn't I be allowed to debate why I think many common ideas about morality are wrong? If I believe the administration should make changes, can't I debate that too?
As for my choice, its to keep using whatever fucking language I want, and keep posting replies as I see fit.
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Post by voltage on May 9, 2007 14:02:23 GMT -5
It is disheartening to hear a debater turn into an adolescent.
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