|
Post by Paragon on Mar 28, 2007 8:47:09 GMT -5
Recently, it appears that the censors on this forum were removed. I'll do a little test to see if its true:
Fuck Shit Damn Ass
Looks like they have! Good thing too, because I think the idea of censoring words is odd as hell. Oh, I forgot to test that one too.
I've decided that if and when I do have children, I'm not going to teach them any profanity. Does that seem contradictory and hyppocritical? To the untrained eye perhaps, but it is not.
And some of you I'm sure are thinking "Kids will learn profanity anyway".
Here I feel obligated to clarify my stance. When I say that I will not teach my children profanity, I do not mean that I will censor my vocabulary around them. I will not try to get rid of television channels that say words like fuck, and shit. I will probably use those words around them myself.
But I refuse to teach my children that any word is profane, the idea is absurd. Words are words, nothing more, and nothing less. The idea that a word is inherently bad is nothing but naive.
Lets go back to the meanings of words, shall we?
Fuck - A term reffering to copulation. Shit - A term reffering to solid bodily excrement. Ass - A term reffering to the orifice from which shit is ejected from the body. (Also a type of animal) Hell - A mythical place where one is said to be in eternal pain and suffering. Damn - The act of condemning a person.
So, we look at those definitions, and see that some of them do not conjure very pleasant images, with the possible exception of "fuck", which might and might not, though a lot of people in the US seem to dislike the idea of sex. Ass is another one of those borderline definitions. Some people like ass. Some people like asses and work with them daily on farms. Some people don't like the idea of shit, which comes from the ass, and thus don't like ass. Thats acceptable, people don't have to like those things. But the words are merely references. Is saying the word shit as disgusting as actually performing the action of shitting, or the smell of it?
So what is wrong with saying a word? The intentions behind it? Surely, all these words have been used in scathing insults that hurt a person's self-esteem, but there are still plenty of normal words that can be used to do the same thing, in fact, you could probably adapt any word in the english language to be used in an insult, yet we all still talk.
A word is not inherently bad. It may describe an unpleasant thing, action, place or idea, but the word itself is fine. They may be used in insults as well, but the hurt does not come from the word, it comes from the intentions of the other person insulting you. Have you ever heard the expression "don't kill the messenger"? The same can really be said of "profane" words.
|
|
|
Post by ixthusdan on Mar 28, 2007 12:21:25 GMT -5
You seem to need a broader understanding of linguistics and human communication. The term to look-up is the semantic domain or the range of meaning in a word. Words have meaning, and they have positive and negative values so that we communicate in more than black and white! If you teach your children that words do not have meaning, then you will simply cause them to learn communication all on their own. Actually, that is not true. Denying that words do not have meaning to your children will teach them that the meanings you teach them are an inexpressible secret, making them poor communicators. People communicate in three basic ways: verbal, non-verbal, and para-verbal. Verbal is where you insist that if a word is taught without any value, it will be OK. Non-verbal is body language, something that we cannot utilize here in this forum. Para-verbal is how we say what we say. By stressing different words in a sentence, we communicate different things. We give words value. Now, more to your topic of profanity. People place values upon language because we express ourselves in the richness of who we are. You can deny it reality but it does nothing to remove reality. "Shit" does not refer to excrement. It means "I think this is a terrible circumstance." "Hell" in the sense you are using it does not mean the Underworld. It means "this circumstance is not a good thing." "Fuck" does not refer in any way to copulation, nor does it refer to any sort of relational activity. It means any of the above words, as well as "I am a linguistic idiot who cannot express myself well because my daddy never taught me."
|
|
|
Post by Paragon on Mar 28, 2007 13:11:49 GMT -5
I happen to use the word fuck quite often during copulation, so does that make me weird? What about calling something a piece of shit? You are equating its value with that of bodily waste. Does using a word in proper context make it less profane? The FAA still requires that radio stations censor the word fuck in the song "Closer" by Nine Inch Nails. The context, by your logic, should allow the word to be broadcast without problem, as the line is "I want to fuck you like an animal".
I do not propose teaching my children that those words have no meaning, I merely mean not to teach them to censor those words, because they are still just words.
Meanwhile, what does the semantic domain or range of a word have to do with whether it is acceptable in common speech? Plenty of words bear the same meanings as you have described these profane words to mean. We could easily substitute them with crap, frak, heck, or any other slew of these half-curses. Saying crap instead of shit can still mean "I think this is a terrible circumstance", yet it is still okay to say? Why?
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Mar 28, 2007 13:26:57 GMT -5
In response to Paragon: I lifted the cencors in recognition of freedom of speech and expression. Having cencors on any word seems like a violation of those freedoms. However, I do recomend that on here you do try to stay away from using profanity in your arguements (just a suggestion, not a rule). I see profanity as expression enhancers, though still not a very good thing to use. For instance, you can tell someone, "go away", or you can say "go fuck off". The latter obviously illistrates your point better. But if you just want to tell a friend or familly member to go away for a minute, you may not want to use the latter. Cuss words, even though they do enhance your statement more, are offensive, depending on how you use them. But used in other cases like, "shit, I don't want to go to school", simply puts more emphasis on what you are saying. Though most people just use them to come off as a tougher individual or to try and sound like they are cool. Sometimes, however, they just seem to reveal an individual with more hot-headed tendancies. In response to Ixthusdan: Curse words are just slang words. And so they really, honestly, have no one meaning. For instance, the word "fuck" can be used to make three different statements: - Go fuck off
- Fuck this
- They were fucking eachother
even though the word itself probably can't be found in the dictionary. I'm sure there are more uses for the word "fuck" but I'm not interested in showing off my profane vocabulary skills But I just wanted to point that out.
|
|
|
Post by voltage on Mar 28, 2007 18:44:58 GMT -5
In response to Alien Mind:
It seems that the point does not come off as clear as it could. Telling someone to go away, or even "I dont like you and I want you to leave" is to me a much better use of words and expression then simply "Go fuck off." The other sentence you offered as an explanation, was "shit I don't want to go to school." An alternative use of words and expression would be "I don't want to go to school because I dislike it." With either alternative sentence you see a much clearer meaning displayed, and if using a greater vocabulary like "I question the motives of the school, so I do not wish to be affiliated with the establishment" makes for a much more refined meaning, which may or may not be hindered by the hearers intelligence. Now you could say "The teachers are shitty, and the school is fucked up." Which emphasizes even more the immaturity of the speaker, and irresponsibility of their speech.
Censors do not take away from freedom of speech, they merely disguise words which usually get their meaning across anyway. If these words have no meaning, then the censor bull**** means as much as the word bullshit. The meaning is not inhibited since the meaning isnt there.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Mar 28, 2007 19:12:03 GMT -5
Voltage, I suggest you read through my post again. Specifically: Sometimes, however, they just seem to reveal an individual with more hot-headed tendancies. But you did bring another issue to mind. Some people may just use cuss words to shorten the message they are trying to get across. You could say "I don't like you please go away", but "go fuck off" puts across that same message with less words. Yes, there are ways to sound more sophiticated while saying the same message. But using slang cuss words may just be an easier method. Consider this: If you were building a house, and you accidentally smashed your finger with a hammer, would your first instinct be to shout "Ow! Shit!" or would you say "Ow! I just hit my finger with a hammer and now it hurts!"
|
|
|
Post by voltage on Mar 28, 2007 19:18:24 GMT -5
So it furthur reveals that someone shortening their expressive method is immature and can't think enough to express an alternative.
|
|
|
Post by ixthusdan on Mar 29, 2007 20:07:49 GMT -5
Please do not sully precious freedoms and decent communication with an absurd notion. The freedoms articulated by the founding fathers were not juvenile. Instead, they bear responsibility and in most cases must be defended violently. Freedom without responsibility is arbitrary selfishness. One cannot falsely yell "Fire" in a crowded auditorium without suffering repercussions. Free speech does not mean void of responsibility. Allowing poor communication on a forum has nothing to do with free speech, but simple arbitrary choice. But then, it is your forum and you can be as arbitrary as you wish. But it is not because of freedom, but because you simply wish it.
Using such language makes you poorly spoken. It is possible you are weird, but I have no interest in discovering your "weirdness." Economy of speech is good for newspapers or year books. It is not good for communication, something that neither newspapers or year books are particularly interested in.
|
|
|
Post by Paragon on Mar 30, 2007 18:39:05 GMT -5
I do have this to say about censoring profanity: if this forum continued to do so, it would not be truncation of the freedom of speech, simply because this forum is not a government institution.
Violation of freedom of speech through censors would have to be emplaced by a government organization, because the Constitution does specify that. Unfortunately, I can think of a place this does happen. FCC anyone?
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Mar 30, 2007 19:55:35 GMT -5
Well I wanted to let everyone say whatever they want. Now if it's just somone mindlessly cussing for no reason, then obviously it isn't aloud. But if everyone wants the cencors back on I'll put them back.
|
|
|
Post by ixthusdan on Mar 31, 2007 11:41:46 GMT -5
I have been first a moderator and later an administrator of a large international board for many years. Use of appropriate language is essential for good communication across many cultures. My experience has been that the notion that free speech means no responsibility is simply wrong. It is your board, but if you are asking, I recommend maintaining a better level of discourse with the automatic filters. (It is better than manually filtering!)
|
|
|
Post by bbqsandwich on Apr 2, 2007 0:30:19 GMT -5
But if everyone wants the cencors back on I'll put them back. *raises hand* *thinks loudly to self about the benefits of censoring profanity*
|
|
|
Post by radioear on Apr 2, 2007 22:01:28 GMT -5
I'm sitting here thinking why anyone would want to use profanity in the fist place, but as a true conservative... I vote for freedom.
|
|
|
Post by voltage on Apr 5, 2007 17:29:50 GMT -5
but what about responsibility? If you have the freedom to throw a waterballoon at a wedding, should you do it for the sake of freedom? Or keep a waterballoon or two under your chair for the sake of freedom?
|
|
|
Post by Paragon on Apr 6, 2007 11:37:14 GMT -5
If the people at the wedding expect me to throw a water balloon, I would (that would be a damn fun wedding too). What makes it "inapropriate" here?
|
|